UPBUILDING THE SELF

The Art of the Meta-Conversation

Have you struggled to make a conversation productive because there is some tension in the relationship or because you feel triggered? Do you really want to give someone feedback but feel blocked in giving it to them? Michael, Rasanath, and Vipin break down one of the most important tools that they use in their personal lives and in their coaching work with clients: the meta-conversation. They share personal and organizational examples of how to use this tool to unblock frustrating relationships, help build environments of trust, and give feedback when giving feedback feels hard. They give tips and ideas on how to incorporate this tool in our everyday lives.

Podcast Hosts: Michael, Vipin, and Rasanath

Highlights

  • [1:55] What is a meta-conversation

  • [3:43] The importance of pausing a conversation when someone feels triggered

  • [6:30] Vipin’s example of feeling triggered when the Upbuild team didn’t receive his enthusiasm for an initiative the way that he expected

  • [10:13] The power of “laying it all out”

  • [13:10] Rasanath’s example of being triggered by and then having a meta-conversation with his spouse

  • [14:30] When to use a meta-conversation

  • [17:17] What it looks like for a meta-conversation to happen at work

  • [19:30] What is a pinch moment

  • [21:55] The erosion of trust that happens when we don’t address people feeling triggered

  • [23:38] What to do when it’s hard to give someone feedback

  • [25:34] When meta-conversations don’t go the way we hoped

  • [36:45] The rules of engagement when using the term “pinch moment”

    • As soon as you recognize a pinch moment, you call it out (“I’m feeling a pinch moment.”)

    • You give the other person/people a chance to respond, but whether they feel the pinch moment or not, the conversation gets paused

    • The group discusses the “metacommunication” (communication about the communication - tone, body language, etc.) before going back to the original topic

    • If the pinch moment is too charged, you agree to discuss the metacommunication at another time but commit to doing so within 1-2 days

    • In the metacommunication, you invest in understanding the intentions of the other person/people and honestly sharing your own (“intention conveyed”)

Quotes

  • “When you are trying to talk about content, but the relationship dynamics are off or we feel triggered, it’s really hard to talk about the content uninfluenced by those dynamics.” -Vipin

  • “If it’s not established that we have a way to have meta-conversations…you default to not having them until things get so bad…that you…need to bring somebody else in to help you have that conversation.” -Vipin

  • “The challenge is that the price we pay for that kind of fast decision-making is the erosion of trust.” -Rasanath 

  • “The story that we build and the reinforcement of that story when we don’t have that meta-conversation just makes things harder…” -Rasanath 

  • “The meta-conversation is a process of going as close as possible to truth and understanding. Sometimes it takes multiple conversations to actually arrive at that, but the process itself is very rewarding.” -Rasanath 

  • “In a meta-conversation, what we are investing in is understanding the intentions of the other people and honestly sharing our own.” -Vipin

For first timers, welcome to Upbuilding the Self

About the podcast: Two former monks, a former startup founder and CEO, and a former equity derivatives trader dive into how to be our best selves, free from the ego. Our egos are the identities we create for ourselves and wish the world to validate, but when we are not seen as we want to be, we feel insecure. This podcast lives at the intersection of leadership and spirituality. It will help you understand your ego and shed light on your inner world so that you can act with greater clarity, compassion, and the freedom to be your best self.